WINDOWS XP FILE SORTING PROBLEM

WINDOWS XP FILE SORTING PROBLEM

Subject Titles:

File sorting issue, XP lost convenience found in Win98, Win 95, and other earlier file managers - Any Ideas?

Now I leave this matter in Microsoft's hands.

If you are reading this and want this problem resolved please email Microsoft at mswish@microsoft.com and feel free to reference this web site.

I'm sure that, like anything else, the more people that raise this issue the more likely it will be fixed for existing and/or future versions.

Cheers,

Shawna

Most often and normally when working with constantly evolving file systems, your most frequently accessed items are (1) folders and (2) the most recently modified files. Therefore they should be the easiest items to locate as we peruse our file indexes. The designers of Windows 98 must have understood this because their file sorting method works well with this fact. It appears, however, that the designers of Window XP did not understand this basic reality and have somehow lost the earlier generation's knowledge.

Norton Commander (under dos and windows) did it back in the late eighties. I was first spoiled using this.

Windows 95 did it. I continued to be spoiled.

Windows 98 (original 4.10.1998) did it! I continued to be spoiled.

Windows 98 SE did it! Still spoiled.

Windows 2k (unknown) (I don't have an operating copy of this, anyone who does is invited to provide a screen shot)

Windows ME (unknown) (I don't have an operating copy of this, anyone who does is invited to provide a screen shot)

Windows XP forgot how! (This is BAD)

Windows XP SP1 forgot how! (I thought they would fix XP in SP1)(This is really BAD that they didn't get this basic kink worked out the second try)

*If you disagree with my findings, please send me a screen shot of your file display.

Email tdwmpc@yahoo.com

===================================================================

SCREEN SHOT #1

This is a screen shot of Windows 98

This is the way I want WinXP to display my files.

Notice the Folders are at the top.

Notice the most recent files follow directly under the folders.

WE CAN SEE BOTH THE FOLDERS AND THE MOST RECENT FILES AT THE SAME TIME!

===================================================================

SCREEN SHOT #2

This is a screen shot of Windows XP

This is screwed up for purposes stated above. It makes it so I have to click around just to see both the folders and my most recent files.

Notice the Folders are at the top. Good, I don't know why folders should ever be sorted such that they go out of sight. They are too important.

Notice, in this setting however, the most recent files are at the bottom were it requires additional clicking to see them.

AGAIN Windows 98 had it right. This display is not very useful. How often am I looking for the oldest file?

WE CAN NOT SEE BOTH THE FOLDERS AND THE MOST RECENT FILES AT THE SAME TIME!

===================================================================

SCREEN SHOT #3

This is a screen shot of Windows XP

Here I tried to reverse the above file order by clicking the "Date Modified" header.

It successfully reverses the file order but it also puts the folders out of sight (somewhere at the bottom.

AGAIN Windows 98 had it right. This is not very useful either!

WE CAN NOT SEE BOTH THE FOLDERS AND THE MOST RECENT FILES AT THE SAME TIME!

===================================================================

Back shortly after XP first came out I looked around for a solution to this problem. I also posted requests for information/help at various web sites to not avail.

I decided to take the lazy route and let the problem resolve itself. I figured that many others would find this problem and there would be a demand to get it fixed one way or another.

I occasionally searched for a solution ever since XP's release to no avail.

My faith in mankind has sunken.

I decided I would actively pursue the problem once again.

I wish I had better communication skills and I wish people understood what I try to explain.

I wish they would check their "knowledge" before effectively shutting down my request by answering it with incorrect answers.

When this is done, other readers are less inclined to solve the problem because it's already "solved", incorrectly that is.

I first set out to try to determine if the problem had already been solved. This I did by search various web sites and usenet. I noticed as before that others were also looking for a way to resolve this problem - to no apparent avail.

The problem has not been solved. Mostly there has been a denial that the issue even exists. I put up the above screen shots on some wise poster's advice and I offer it as proof that (1) there is a difference in the way that Win98 and WinXP sort there files and (2) Win98 was better in that it allows you to see you most recently changed files and the folders at the same time.

In "details" display, click the column header "Date Modified". When the files are listed from newest to oldest:

In Win98 the folders are at the TOP.

In WinXP the folders are at the BOTTOM.

***

Window 98 does it exactly the opposite of Windows XP.

We shouldn't have to search around each folder just to see both the folders and the most recent files. Both should appear when we simply open the folder. Win98 worked well.

Again Win98 makes sense and worked well. WinXP makes you click around to see what win98 just simply always showed just by opening the folder once the folder view setting were set.

This may seem minor but when you use it every day, day in and day out, it really get old. I'd pay someone to fix it.

I fully expected this to be resolved in SP1 – nope:

Any ideas on how to make winXP display like win98 does would be greatly apreaciated.

All I wanna do is - have some fun - fix this damn thing. PLEASE HELP. I know it is not a big deal to some but IT IS TO ME!

Thanks,

Shawna

Please email any solution to this to tdwmpc@yahoo.com

If somebody resolves this I will post the solution here. I will also publicly praise them and vote for them to be anything they want to be.

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===============

Hi Paul,

Ok, I tried it. I figured out how to decode the reg file and I merged it. I don’t know what that did though. Is it something to do with sorting by “alpha-numerical rather than by ASCII”? Oh well, I’m willing to try anything. Thanks for the suggestion. Now how do I undo the reg file?

While I would also like it if “Explorer knew the difference between file & folder shortcuts”. Right now I am trying to keep it simple. If I ask for too much I may get nothing. Besides it complicates the request and makes the most important part (to me) obscure.

Here is the difference between win98 and XP that has driven me nuts since XP’s launch.

-------

In "details" display, click the column header "Date Modified". When the files are listed from newest to oldest:

In Win98 the folders are at the TOP.

In WinXP the folders are at the BOTTOM.

-------

Window 98 does it exactly the opposite of Windows XP.

We shouldn't have to search around each folder just to see both the folders and the most recent files. Both should appear when we simply open the folder. Win98 worked well.

Again Win98 makes sense and worked well. WinXP makes you click around to see what win98 just simply always showed just by opening the folder once the folder view setting were set.

I fully expected this to be resolved in SP1 – nope:

Thanks again,

Shawna

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Shawna

tdwmpc@yahoo.com

File and Folder display change in Explorer.

Here is the difference between win98 and XP that has driven me nuts since XP’s launch.

-------

In "details" display, click the column header "Date Modified". When the files are listed from newest to oldest:

In Win98 the folders are at the TOP.

In WinXP the folders are at the BOTTOM.

-------

Window 98 does it exactly the opposite of Windows XP.

We shouldn't have to search around each folder just to see both the folders and the most recent files. Both should appear when we simply open the folder. Win98 worked well.

Again Win98 makes sense and worked well. WinXP makes you click around to see what win98 just simply always showed just by opening the folder once the folder view setting were set.

I fully expected this to be resolved in SP1 – nope:

Any ideas on how to make winXP display like win98 does would be greatly apreaciated.

Thanks,

Shawna

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>"Shawna" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in

message

>news:042e01c3ddb3$55dbd2a0$a601280a@phx.gbl...

>| Here is the difference between win98 and XP that has

>| driven me nuts since XP's launch.

>| -------

>| In "details" display, click the column header "Date

>| Modified". When the files are listed from newest to

>| oldest:

>| In Win98 the folders are at the TOP.

>| In WinXP the folders are at the BOTTOM.

>| -------

>| Window 98 does it exactly the opposite of Windows XP.

>| We shouldn't have to search around each folder just to

see

>| both the folders and the most recent files. Both should

>| appear when we simply open the folder. Win98 worked

well.

>| Again Win98 makes sense and worked well. WinXP makes

you

>| click around to see what win98 just simply always showed

>| just by opening the folder once the folder view setting

>| were set.

>| I fully expected this to be resolved in SP1 - nope:

>| Any ideas on how to make winXP display like win98 does

>| would be greatly apreaciated.

/>|

>| Thanks,

>| Shawna

>Hi,

>Windows XP has a setting to remember the last view you

have used to for each

>folder.

>The default view is Tiles one.

>On W98 you have to use Powertoys Tweak UI to set on or

off this option. In

>WXP it's built in.

>Start Menu -> Control Panel -> Folder Option

>Tab View -> on Advanced settings frame -> check or

uncheck "Remember each

>folder's view settings"

>To sort a column in ascending way, click once on the

header. To sort a

>column in descending way, click twice on the header.

>Hope it's help you

>-------

>Philippe

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Thanks for your suggestion Philippe,

Let me try and explain what I want:

In "details" display, click the column header "Date

modified".

When the files are listed from newest to oldest (newest

first), I want the folders at the TOP. Just like win 98

did it.

Thanks again

Shawna

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Hi Shawna,

After setting your preferred view style, click on the "date modified" column

header to reverse the direction. Same as Win98.

Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers aka "Nutcase" MS-MVP - Win9x

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Shawna

tdwmpc@yahoo.com

Not same as Win98.

Thanks for your suggestion Rick,

Let me try to explain what I want:

In "details" display, click the column header "Date modified".

When the files are listed from newest to oldest (newest first), I want the folders at the TOP. Just like win 98 did it.

Now, in WinXP, the folders are at the BOTTOM when the files are listed from newest to oldest.

Can you reverse that?

Thanks again

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Shawna

tdwmpc@yahoo.com

XP’s loss of Convenience that was in Win98

Let me try and explain what I want:

When using Explorer and viewing files in "details" display mode, then I click the column header "Date modified".

When the files are listed from newest to oldest (newest first), I want the folders at the TOP. Just like win 98 did it.

Now, in WinXP, the folders are at the BOTTOM when the files are listed from newest to oldest.

I want to be able to set the display to always show both the folders first then the files (newest first) whenever I first open the folder. I know how to save the file display settings, I just can't get the setting in the first place an I don't think I should have to click around to see both. Win98 had it right.

Can you fix that?

Thanks,

Shawna

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Hi Shawna,

After setting your preferred view style, click on the "date modified" column

header to reverse the direction. Same as Win98.

Best of Luck,

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Shawna

tdwmpc@yahoo.com

Re: Not same as Win98.

Look more closly please, they are different:

Here is the difference between win98 and XP that has driven me nuts since XP’s launch.

***

In "details" display, click the column header "Date Modified". When the files are listed from newest to oldest:

In Win98 the folders are at the TOP.

In WinXP the folders are at the BOTTOM.

***

Window 98 does it exactly the opposite of Windows XP.

We shouldn't have to search around each folder just to see both the folders and the most recent files. Both should appear when we simply open the folder. Win98 worked well.

Again Win98 makes sense and worked well. WinXP makes you click around to see what win98 just simply always showed just by opening the folder once the folder view setting were set.

This may seem minor but when you use it every day, day in and day out, it really get old. I'd pay someone to fix it.

I fully expected this to be resolved in SP1 – nope:

Any ideas on how to make winXP display like win98 does would be greatly apreaciated.

Thanks,

Shawna

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Shawna,

Go to this URL and scroll down to item 19 and in the RIGHT

column there is a fix.

http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_tweaks.htm

HTH,

'Twould be great - if it worked.

Thanks for try thought,

Shawna

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Shawna, your not listening to us. Win98 and WinXP work exactly the same when

it comes to sorting in explorer. Trust me, it is exactly the same. You seem

to be seeing something different on your computer, and I don't doubt you, it

just that in normal operation XP does not work like you describe. There has

to be something wrong with your xp or something wrong in the way your doing

it. MS didn't change anything, trust me, really. The one new thing is sort

in groups. I just tried as you said with details view, I clicked on date

modified column and the folders are either at the top or the bottom all

grouped together, depending on if I sorted desending or asending. If I click

on the date modfied column it sorts by date, folders at the top, if I click

again, folders at the bottom, if I click again, folders at the top...etc...

If you'd like to try to trouble shoot your problem post back, as this is a

problem with your xp or technique. Maybe you can post a screen shot of your

explorer on a website you have. Just to show you, here are some screen shots

I just took 2 miutes ago. They clearly show folder on top or on bottom,

sorted by date modified, in details view. The top or bottom folders depends

on asending or descending sort order.

http://www.woodspecialties.com/view.htm

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Purplehaz,

Thanks for hanging in there. Let me make it clear that...

OK here we go, I can't convey the difference in words and purplehaz suggested that I take some screen shots and post them. Great idea!

All I wanna do is - have some fun - fix this damn thing. PLEASE HELP. I know it is not a big deal to some but IT IS TO ME!

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File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

My quest for a solution

On the advice of some wise poster, I put up a web page with screen shots to better explain the problem.

<a target=_blank href="http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm">http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm</a>

Please check it out.

Shawna

File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

My quest for a solution

On the advice of some wise poster, I put up a web page with screen shots to better explain the problem.

<a target=_blank href="http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm">http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm</a>

Please check it out.

Shawna

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File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

On the advice of some wise poster, I put up a web page with screen shots to better explain the problem.

http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

Please check it out.

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Dear Rick,

I never got, although I looked very thoroughly, your .jpg link. Please repost. I followed your instructions however. I believe you completely miss my point. Please read my web page and look at the screen shots and then I think you'll see what the trouble is. If you really can produce the desired results, I sure would be interested in seeing your screen shot of it. As for my posting, it is definately willy - but not nilly! :)

Shawna

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Star Fleet Admiral,

I believe you completely miss my point as well. Please read my web page and look at the screen shots (WARNING: You should spend more than 2 or 3 seconds). Then I think you'll see what the trouble is. If you really can produce the desired results, please email me a screen shot of it.

If well meaning people, eager to help, answer my problem by stating that there is no problem, it makes it very hard to solve because it's solved by denial. I tried to deny it ever since XP's lauch.

Thanks again,

Shawna

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Thank you Kelly,

As you suggested, I tried that fix reg "sortorder.reg" but it didn't work for my problem.

I also tries another reg file from your site named "xp_shellstate.reg". That didn;t work either.

Thanks for the collection you have there.

Shawna

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>-----Original Message-----

>Most welcome and hmm....

>Would be interested in knowing when this first started and what other third

>party software/tweakers, edits you have installed/applied. This is

>generally an easy fix for most XP users.

>Good luck in the meantime and keep us posted.

Hi Kelly,

This is the way XP sorts strait out of the box. Did you look at my web page where the problem is decribed and shown?

http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

Please check it out.

Thanks again for your attention,

Shawna

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This is the link I referred to:

http://users.westelcom.com/rogersr/xpfolders.htm

You can find the original post here:

news:Op#LOi73DHA.2528@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl

I did look at you pics, and on the last image you are only one step shy of

the view you want. Simply by clicking the "type" column header at that

point, you will have what you want.

Best of Luck,

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Dear Rick,

Arrgggghhh,

Either you are not understanding this problem or you are just playing around.

If you sort the files "simply by clicking the 'type' column header " at anytime, you get the files grouped by "TYPE" as their primary sort NOT BY DATE. The only way one could get the desired result of having the files listed "new to oldest" using your method is if he had only one "type" of file in the folder. Your screen shot does NOT show the desired effect. But thanks for trying. I'll give you an A for confidence, a D for reading skills, a C for effort and an F for end results. :)

http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

Thanks again for your attention,

Shawna

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Hi Lemon Jelly,

I added my screen shot of the "folder under W98 with the order reversed to really compare between the 2 OSs", as you mentioned. It's at the bottom of the page.

http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

I originally did not include it on my page because I thought that it was of little value but I see what you mean and why you would want to see it.

Thanks for understanding my problem and for your help.

I think you are really on to something here Lemon Jelly you may be getting me out of a pickle jam. Ah shucks, you probably get that a lot.

Shawna

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Subject: Re: File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

From: "John" <John@JwFunke.net> Sent: 1/21/2004 4:56:15 AM

Kelly wrote:

> Correcting Windows XP Sort Order

> http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_s.htm#so

Okay, I'll pipe up, 'cause I'm kinda curious, have the same problem and

have been following some of these willy (but not nilly) threads.

Note: A second computer has the same situation, with very similar

hardware, somewhat different software, and not nearly as tweaked.

------------

The problem:

In Windows Explorer, C:\, details view, sort on name, I see:

Program Files (folder)

Windows (folder)

Autoexec.bat (file)

Config.sys (file)

Clicking on Name to reverse the sort order I see:

Config.sys (file)

Autoexec.bat (file)

Windows (folder)

Program Files (folder)

I would think the folders should be above the files irregardless of how

I sort.

Note: Folders are always at the bottom no matter what sort is reversed,

i.e. Reversing Name, Size, Type... will put the folders at the bottom.

----------

Fix attempts:

I didn't see Rick "Nutcase"s solution.

Result- Untried, obviously. :-)

Change the Sort Order Back to W2K Style (Line 107)

http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_tweaks.htm

Result- Folders still go to bottom with reverse sort, but I kept this fix.

Correct the Sort Order in Windows XP (Line 19b)

http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_tweaks.htm

Result- Folders still go to bottom with reverse sort, also gave me

Classic Start menu. Went back to the original, which is:

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer]

"ShellState"=hex:24,00,00,00,37,a8,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,\

ff,ff,ff,ff,0d,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,02,00,00,00

Sort Order - Reversed A-Z is Z-A

http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_s.htm#so

(C:\>details>hold CTRL>close using X>restart)

Result- No change. I tried this with Explorer set both A-Z and Z-A.

I also hunted through Help and Support, as well as the MS KB without any

new results.

----------

Software Environment:

Kelly suggested that maybe it was something else installed causing this,

so...

----------

My Box:

Win XP Home Upgrade, clean installed a month ago. Originally Win ME.

Major software- nVidia drivers, Creative Live! software, Norton AV Pro

2003, ZoneAlarm, Gateway Millenium Keyboard, Iomega Parallel Port Zip 100.

Tweaks performed- Way too numerous to list (or remember), but here's a

sample of maybe pertinent tweaks.

Added Move To and Copy To buttons in Win Explorer

Moved My Documents out of all those #$%& subfolders

Have an R:\ drive that's hidden via TweakUI

Removed Recycle Bin from Desktop

Changed some folder and drive icons

R-click context menu additions; Move To and Copy To, Open DOS Box and

Unziplify.

Explorer Tools>Folder Options>View settings; Everything unhidden (show-

extensions, hidden and system files), "Display simple folder view" is

unchecked.

Other software:

Win XP, fully updated

MS Office Pro 2000, fully updated

VB 6.0 LE, updated with SP5

Adobe Reader 6.0

-----------

Services killed:

(Most I disabled, a few already set this way, some I don't remember.)

Creative Service for CDROM Access- Disabled

Fast User Switching Compatibility- Manual

Human Interface Device Access- Disabled

IMAPI CD-Burning COM Service- Manual

ICF/ICS- Manual

Iomega Activity Disk2- Disabled

Iomega App Services- Disabled

Logical Disk Manager (and Admin. Serv.)- Manual

Messenger- Disabled

Norton Unerase Protection- Automatic

NVIDIA Driver Helper Service- Disabled

Portable Media Serial Number Service- Manual

Routing and Remote Access- Disabled

Uninterruptible Power Supply- Disabled

Universal Plug and Play Device Host- Disabled

TIA.

John

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Wow, thanks, John, for your work. I have had this trouble on every XP machine I have ever seen. It's the way it comes for MS.

I agree that Folders are important enough to always be on top. I suppose one may want to see all items including folders listed by date to get a chronological history of the file and folder structure.

I'm afraid to say this now but:

Ultimately I wish to Arrange the Icons inside my Folders thus:

All concurrently:

1st by: all folders (Alphabetically a-z)

2nd by: all files (by Date with newest files at the top-just under the folders)

Then, set that regime to apply to all folders

I hope this is possible. It would greatly assist in locating my files.

Windows 98 did this just fine, and I got spoiled I guess.

Shawna

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Kelly,

I'm sorry, those pop ups are not mine. They are from the free web host, 0catch.com. If you know where I can free *clean* web hosting. I will use that in the future.

Thanks again, and sorry - again.

Shawna

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Subject: Re: File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

From: "David Candy" <david@mvps.org> Sent: 1/21/2004 1:01:48 AM

I just see malware trying to install at that link.

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David,

I'm sorry for the junk at that web host. Those pop ups are not mine. They are from the free web host Ocatch.com. You should be able get to the page without accepting their junk. I can. If you know where I can free *clean* web hosting. I will use that in the future. If you would like me to email you the web files directly, to avoid the 0catch.com junk, I will do that upon your email request.

Sorry - again.

Shawna

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OK.. Now that we can see it, makes more sense. Now for an interesting note. I fresh loaded an older PC with an OEM copy of Win 98 and guess what? It acts the identical way that XP does. Now that brings up a question of, was there an update that changed or added this functionality to 9X? Are you running an original 98 install or 98 SE or Win ME? I can load any of them for a test and will do so if I find nothing in the origianl install and updates that fix the problem. I do remember an issue where a bug(s) was fixed with some type of display problem in Explorer but I don't have all of my PC Mags going back far enough to research it. There were also some reg hacks for different options that were found. As I have time I will research it and apply/update patches to the install to see when if it changes and report back but it may take awhile. I will BM this post to keep track of it. C K

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Gretings C K,

My posted screen shots are of Win98 (original 4.10.98). You said your Win98 (original) behaves exactly like WinXP. Please provide me a screen shot demonstrating that. You are saying that your copy of Win98 will not sort like my Win98 screen shot? Hmm.

All I want for Christmas is a current operating system that sorts files as well as some have done since back in the eighties.

I want Folders listed first, then files listed - newer files before older files.

Which systems sort files in this manner?

So far this is what I can tell by starting up old systems laying around here.

Norton Commander (under dos and windows) did it! (I was first spoiled using this) back in the late eighties.

Windows 95 did it! (Continued to be spoiled)

Windows 98 (original 4.10.1998) did it! (Continued to be spoiled) (CK say his/hers does not sort this way)

Windows 98 SE (unknown) (I don't have an operating copy anyone who does is invited to provide a screen shot)

Windows ME (unknown) (I don't have an operating copy anyone who does is invited to provide a screen shot)

Windows XP forgot how!

Windows XP SP1 forgot how! (I thought they would fix XP in SP1)

I'm sorry but my cheap (free) web page has exeeded it's daily bandwidth limit today. I don't know what time it refreshes it's limit. This has never happened to me before.

Thanks for your help C K

Shawna

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Lemon Jelly,

You said, "It would be useful if others would confirm if the sub-folders jump from 1st to last"

Both Win98 cause the sub-folders jump from 1st to last.

The difference is that:

In Win98 the Folders are first when you sort NEWEST TO OLDEST.

In WinXP the Folders are first when you sort OLDEST TO NEWEST.

When you use the file system day after day it becomes clear that the way Win98 does it is by far the most convenient.

Thanks again,

Shawna

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C K,

I thought this may help clear up what I am making an issue of.

Both Win98 cause the sub-folders to jump from first to last.

The difference is that:

In Win98 the Folders are first when you sort NEWEST TO OLDEST.

In WinXP the Folders are first when you sort OLDEST TO NEWEST.

When you use the file system day after day it becomes clear that the way Win98 does it is by far the most convenient.

Thanks again,

Shawna

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Subject: Re: File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

From: "Lemon Jelly" <hhh@aaa.com> Sent: 1/21/2004 4:02:48 AM

Shawn's problem is that when you sort by date in a folder with files &

sub-folders, the subfolders will be displayed last when one reverses the

sort order. I can confirm this behaviour on my PC. I won't have access

to a win98 PC until Friday but Shawna says the sub-folders remain at the

top with the files reversed below them & has applied the reg fix that

addresses the ASCII v alphanumerical order but it didn't effect the

results of sub-folder placement (from a 3rd thread).

It would be useful if others would confirm if the sub-folders jump from

1st to last 'cos as you ask, what 3rd party apps have been installed

which may have modified the sorting. I suspect it's the default

behaviour anyway; XP treating sub-folders as files when sorted by date

but there must be some kind of hierarchy otherwise sub-folders would be

interspersed throughout the files themselves which is only the case with

shortcuts to folders.

The consequences of this behaviour is that one has to scroll to see both

folders & most recent files under XP but not with W98. Shawna has

modified the web page but it lacks a screenshot of a folder under W98

with the order reversed to really compare between the 2 OSs.

Regards

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As per Lemon Jelly's mention, here is the screenshot of a folder under W98 with the order reversed to really compare between the 2 OSs.

I think you are really on to something here Lemon Jelly you may be getting me out of a pickle jam. Ah shucks, you probably get that a lot.

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Subject: Re: File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

From: "mrtee" <hingelickera@new$.rr.com> Sent: 1/21/2004 4:11:18 PM

Your 20 megs is used up, can't see.

Just my 2¢ worth

Jeff

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Thanks Jeff,

I posted it to another funky host but I won't keep it updated there.

http://www.scn.org/~bb523/Screenshots.htm

Can somebody tell me of a free web host that is not so limited?

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>-----Original Message-----

>www.v-com.com PowerDesk keeps folders on the top level.

>--

>Just my 2¢ worth

> Jeff

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Jeff,

Thanks for the info. Maybe I'll need to get that.

The trouble with using 3rd party software is that it becomes more difficult to walk other's through proceedures since your system is out of sync with their's. It's especially difficult when doing this telephonically.

Shawna

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Subject: Re: File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

From: "Star Fleet Admiral Q" <Star_Fleet_Admiral_Q(NOSPAM)@(SPAMNOT)hotmail.com> Sent: 1/21/2004 5:53:12 PM

I see now Shawna, but I've been using Win2k/WinXP for so long, that I've

just gotten used to "Folders" being at the bottom in a reverse sort - I

apologize for not taking longer into seeing what your complaint was.

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Star Fleet Admiral Q,

Apology accepted, thank you. You are an admirable admiral.

Now, that it appears you understand my complaint, can you verify that Win2k sorts identically to WinXP with respect to my stated concerns?

Thanks.

Shawna

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Subject: Re: File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

From: "John" <John@JwFunke.net> Sent: 1/21/2004 10:11:30 AM

Shawna wrote:

> Wow, thanks, John, for your work. I have had this trouble

> on every XP machine I have ever seen. It's the way it

> comes for MS.

:-) Soooo, I get an A for effort? :-)

Actually, I'm just waiting around to hear the dreaded words, "This is by

design." and am surprised it hasn't been said already.

John

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Subject: Re: File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

From: "Kelly" <kelly@mvps.org> Sent: 1/21/2004 10:05:41 PM

>Actually, I'm just waiting around to hear the dreaded words, "This is by

>design." and am surprised it hasn't been said already.

"This is by design." :o)

All the Best,

Kelly

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Easter Egg Hunt XP

Yes Kelly,

It all make sense now. It's part of the easter egg hunt XP. Now you can hunt for every file! Now you can frequently change your sort order so the files can be *anywhere*! Now you never find both your folders and your most recent files in the same place (unless your list of files and folders is short)! You get to use many more repetitive key strokes, mouse points and clicks! Thus making the hunting game much more fun! MS really is getting into the gaming world. And why not? The serious software is just too boring and not enough fun!

Thanks,

Shawna

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Subject: Re: Easter Egg Hunt XP

From: "David Candy" <david@mvps.org> Sent: 1/21/2004 11:15:54 PM

I know how the Office team thinks. They strive for internal consistancy.

By this the 98 way is wrong. If a user reverses the sort order then one would expect the whole list to reverse, not just files.

The fact that someone is used to one way isn't a reason to always do things wrong in the future. Try adapting to the software. Regard 98 as teaching you to use a computer the wrong way.

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Dear David,

You can't be serious. You really *are* saying this is by design? I don't really care so much if the whole list is reversed each time you click the column header. Win98 did that too, that's fine. Most importantly, just put the most recent files where they can be seen along with the folders instead of the oldest files that have apparently been unused, or at least unchanged for some time. New files are sought after far more than old files. It's like putting your most frequently used tools somewhere in the back of the shed where you have to trip over other tools to get to them.

If you still think you are right, please explain how Win98 is wrong. It is consistent in every way XP is, just more user friendly too - in this regard.

BTW

MS Excel has a sort tool for spreadsheets that allows you to sort by three key sort orders concurrently. It works very well for Excel. It would be ideal if MS would implement a similar tool for Explorer.

I posted a shot of that tool on my web page at

http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

Anyhow, I’m not looking to get this developed right now for XP, I just have a hard time going backwards. If it’s ok to go backwards for you, then bully for you. :)

Toodle-oo,

Shawna

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This is the MS Excel sort tool for spreadsheets that allows you to sort by three key sort orders concurrently.

It works very well for Excel. It would be ideal if MS would implement a similar tool for Explorer.

By the way, I don't know how to get Microsoft's attention (except perhaps by infringing on their name- as in Mr. Mike Rowe Soft), but it would also be nice if the sort and display settings saved for folders also automatically applied to "open" and "save as" dialog boxes. There is a tellers fee for this though. All rights reserved.:)

HOW CAN I MAKE MY ASTUTE OBSERVATIONS AND SUGGESTIONS TO MR. MICROSOFT?

Is there a suggestion box somewhere?

Is there a question box somewhere?

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Subject: Re: File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

From: "John" <John@JwFunke.net> Sent: 1/22/2004 6:51:15 AM

Kelly wrote:

>>Actually, I'm just waiting around to hear the dreaded words, "This is by

>>design." and am surprised it hasn't been said already.

> "This is by design." :o)

:-) Thanks a lot Kelly.

You are correct, though. It turns out that both Win95 and WinME put the

folders on the bottom with any reverse sort. I suspect Win98 does this also.

<sheepishly> Obviously I never noticed this during the last eight years,

so it cannot be an issue for me. :-/

John

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Shawna

tdwmpc@yahoo.com

microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.customize, microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support, microsoft.public.windowsxp.configuration_manage

Regardless of what is forward and reverse: Somewhere between Win 98 SE and XP, Microsoft began putting the OLD files next to the folders instead of NEW files next to the folders in date sorts.

My main point is that both FOLDERS and NEW FILES should appear together - at the SAME END of the list. Not at OPPOSITE ENDS.

FOLDERS and NEW FILES are sought after far more than old files.

Putting FOLDERS and NEW FILES at opposite ends of the list creates the need to hunt for one or the other. It's like putting your most frequently used tools somewhere in the back of the shed where you have to trip over junk to get to them. They both (FOLDERS and NEW FILES) should appear readily seen at the same end of the list - no hunting, no key strokes, no mouse points and clicks.

--- These file management programs understood this:
Norton Commander (under dos and windows) did it back in the late eighties. I was first spoiled using this.
Windows 95 did it. I continued to be spoiled.
Windows 98 (original 4.10.1998) did it! I continued to be spoiled.
Windows 98 SE did it! Still spoiled.
Windows 2k (unknown) (I don't have an operating copy of this, anyone who does is invited to provide a screen shot)
Windows ME (unknown) (I don't have an operating copy of this, anyone who does is invited to provide a screen shot)

---These file management programs do not understand this:
Windows XP forgot how! (This is BAD)
Windows XP SP1 forgot how! (I thought they would fix XP in SP1)(This is really BAD that they didn't get this basic kink worked out the second try)

* Note to all: If you disagree with my findings, please send me a screen shot of your file display.
Email tdwmpc@yahoo.com

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I found this web site which records at least one of these usenet threads. However, posts that are made to this web site don't seem to appear back on usenet.

File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98 - MCSE

Other Web threads dealing with this issue:

Annoyances.org - File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98 (Windows XP Discussion Forum)

Software & Hardware Discussion Forum - XP’s loss of Convenience that was in Win98

File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

Google Search 98 folders first most recent details

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Subject:  Re: File sorting issue, XP loss of function that was found in Win98

From:  "John" <John@JwFunke.net> Sent:  1/22/2004 8:35:59 PM

Shawna wrote:

<major snip>

> Regardless of what is forward and reverse: Somewhere

> between  Win 98 SE and XP, Microsoft began putting the OLD

> files next to the folders instead of NEW files next to the

> folders in date sorts.

Shawna calls it. Here are your screen shots, sans Win98.

http://www.jwfunke.net/windate/windate.htm

How weird! (or More things I never noticed. :-) )

Win95 sort- new to old

WinME sort- old to new

*But* using File Manager instead of Explorer in WinMe gives the Win95

style sort.

WinXP sort- old to new

Unfortunately for you, Shawna, it seems "This is by design." (They also

got rid of the sometimes useful winfile.exe in XP.)

John

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Where are the Software God's? - Who Can Help?

It sure would be great to get some support on this matter. I wish I knew how to troubleshoot this.

Surely I am not the only one who goes searching for recent files many many times a day.

We have many view settings but in all those settings we've lost the most useful setting.

I can not accept the idea that it is a design. I could accept that it is by oversight but not design. Why would anyone purposely put the folders and the most recent files at opposite ends of the list? Anyhow, If it's by design, it's by poor design.

Kelly, You indicated that you would look into it. Did you find anything?

http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

Much appreciated,

Shawna

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Challenge: Try to make WinXP sort like Win98

If you can make WinXP put it's most recent files next to the folders as in my SCREEN SHOT #1, please send me your screen shot.

If you can't, doesn't that suck?

http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

I'm hoping to create a group of people who are interested in seeing this problem resolved. I do not have the technical skills to resolve it.

My hope is that some how, some way we will find somebody who can resolve it.

If nothing else, Sheer numbers may impress MS to see that it gets resolved.

I have never done this before so any ideas would be appreciated.

Surely there is a suggestion box email address for MS.

It's not IQ, it's "I will".

Shawna

tdwmpc@yahoo.com

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Subject:  Re: Where are the Software God's? - Who Can Help?

From:  "Kelly" <kelly@mvps.org> Sent:  1/25/2004 12:06:46 AM

Give it up, Shawna.

>Anyhow, If it's by design, it's by poor design.

How to Contact the Microsoft Wish Program

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;114491

--

All the Best,

Kelly

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Shawna

tdwmpc@yahoo.com

>Give it up, Shawna.

Forgive my ignorance please Kelly,

Are you saying that this is the end of the line and there is no hope to resolve this problem?

If this were a very important problem for you, would you "give it up" at this point?

Do you have a suggestion of what I may do to resolve this aside from "giving it up"?

This is not just a passing interest for me.

Thanks in advance,

Shawna

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Subject:  Re: Challenge: Try to make WinXP sort like Win98

 From:  "Steve Shattuck" <steve@shattuck.net> Sent:  1/25/2004 7:22:33 AM

Shawna" <tdwmpc@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3a7b01c3e312$6f03eab0$a001280a@phx.gbl...

> If you can make WinXP put it's most recent files next to

> the folders as in my SCREEN SHOT #1, please send me your

> screen shot.

> If you can't, doesn't that suck?

> http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

Be aware that this SCUMBAG has setup this web page to install a backdoor on your computer if you access this URL.  This has NOTHING to do with a suggested change to explorer.  In fact the length of the page is to keep you there long enough for the script to install the backdoor silently.  Hope everyone that went to this site has a GOOD firewall or your systems are now infected.

--

..__

(__

___)teve       steve@shattuck.net     www.steve.shattuck.net

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Argggh again,

NO NO NO, I am not loading back door anything, If anything IS loading, it's coming from 0catch.com.

I use a popup blocker, I only get an ad at the top added in.

They give free web space but they put there own ads on your page.

That is at:

http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

I also have an alternate site that has no such ads but I have limited access to it so I can't keep it updated.

It's at

http://www.scn.org/~bb523/Screenshots.htm

The page is long because I have documented a lot of my attempt at getting this problem resolved.

Most people misunderstand what I am looking for so I put up some pictures to explain the problem.

If you can direct me to a free, easy to use website, I would use it instead.

Shawna

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Greetings --

If you want an OS like Win98, why don't you use Win98? Can't even
imagine why you'd think the two operating systems would. or should, be
the same.

Bruce Chambers

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Hi Bruce,

I don't think they should be the same. I only think that the newer OS should not be worse than the old on important stuff. I take it you have not read the specifics to this problem.

Regards,

Shawna

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Subject:  Re: Where are the Software God's? - Who Can Help?

 From:  "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@nospamcableone.net> Sent:  1/25/2004 8:09:11 AM

Greetings --

    Why not simply select Explorer's Details view, and sort by date?

Seems straight-forward enough to me.  Anyway, most people already know

where they save their files, so they don't usually have to search for

them.

Bruce Chambers

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Shawna

tdwmpc@yahoo.com

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for your suggestion, I'm sorry if my last message was not complete enough for you to understand what I am looking for in full.

I wish to see BOTH the folders and the most recent files at the top of the list as you can with win98, win95, Norton commander and others but not WinXP

If you manage enough files this would be important to have.
I don't expect you to make my problems yours, but if there is a way to do it, I would sure like to know how.

Regards,
Shawna

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Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:30:03 -0800 (PST)

From: "Me" <tdwmpc@yahoo.com>  Add to Address Book

Subject: WIN XP FILE SORT PROBLEM

To: mswish@microsoft.com

WIN XP FILE SORT PROBLEM

I tried to get this issue resolved but failed.  I now turn to you to ask that you remedy the problem.

I have posted a web page that I ask you to consult which best explains the issue.

http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

Please email me if you have a fix and if you intend fixing the problem.

Thanks

Shawna

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Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:53:29 -0800

From: "mswish" <mswish@microsoft.com>  Add to Address Book

Subject: RE:{RTCProd#004-235-089}WIN XP FILE SORT PROBLEM

To: "Me" <tdwmpc@yahoo.com>

Hello Shawna,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft Online Customer Service.

I am Sandeep a Customer Service Representative for Microsoft and I am glad to know that you have a feedback for us to improve Windows XP. I appreciate you taking the time and efforts to write to us and provide us your valuable comments about our products in a detailed manner. I am forwarding your suggestion to Microsoftâ€™s Feedback and Product Enhancement team.

Shawna, I saw the screenshots on your webpage and understand the problem you are facing due to the unavailability of this feature in Windows XP. I realize the inconvenience caused to you. Microsoft is focused on providing high-quality products and services for its customers. Feedback such as yours enables us to move one step towards our goals. We believe people who actually use our products on a regular basis are better judges of how our products and related services can be improved. I am forwarding your suggestion to our feedback and product enhancement team. Bear in mind that such suggestions and comments previously lodged by customers were significantly responsible for the release of updates, patches and new products.

Thank you so much for working with us to improve our Products and Services! I welcome your comments and suggestions or any queries on our support processes, products, and customer service representatives, about how we can improve your support experience.

Thank you for using Microsoft Products and Services and Have a great day!

Sandeep

Microsoft Online Customer Service Representative

"Building Customer Trust and Value by Providing A Quality Experience The First Time, Every Time".

Delighting our customers is our top Priority.

-----Original Message-----

From:   Me  (tdwmpc@yahoo.com)

Date:   Monday, February 02, 2004  08:30 PM

To:   mswish@microsoft.com (mswish@microsoft.com)

Subject:  WIN XP FILE SORT PROBLEM

WIN XP FILE SORT PROBLEM

I tried to get this issue resolved but failed.  I now turn to you to ask that you remedy the problem.

I have posted a web page that I ask you to consult which best explains the issue.

http://321.0catch.com/Screenshots.htm

Please email me if you have a fix and if you intend fixing the problem.

Thanks

Shawna

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From: Michel (michel@michel.com)

Subject: Re: Easter Egg Hunt XP

View this article only

Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.customize, microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support, microsoft.public.windowsxp.configuration_manage

Date: 2004-02-10 01:02:17 PST

"David Candy" <david@mvps.org> a écrit dans le message de news:

> By this the 98 way is wrong. If a user reverses the sort order then one

> would expect the whole list to reverse, not just files.

Folders are not files. When sorting files, the best place for folders is on

top.

Sort order should logically be :

- First

Folders, sorted by name/date/ or what you have selected inthe current view

- Second

Files, sorted by by name/date/ or what you have selected inthe current view

That is the way we all know since 15 years. Why should we change because

someone at MS decided it would be best for all newby (sure he/she was a

newby himself, ignoring a so old tradition) ?

Perhaps most average "john doe" people doesn't see the difference. But most

"power users" noticed it. And regret the classical way. For this kind of

change it should be a setting allowing us to choose.

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If you’ve made it this far, you deserver some related humor which was sent to me by a fellow cyber-citizen who could feel my pain.

http://321.0catch.com/humor.htm

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Now I leave this matter in Microsoft's hands.

If you are reading this and want this problem resolved please email Microsoft at mswish@microsoft.com and feel free to reference this web site.

I'm sure that, like anything else, the more people that raise this issue the more likely it will be fixed for existing and/or future versions.

Cheers,

Shawna